Winter use on the Payette National Forest The shared use concept on the Payette has seen the non-motorized use basically be eliminated by the motorized community. In the past the concept for winter recreation was shared use of the backcountry.  Basically winner take all.  Historically,  the use was shared and most  users got along well.  Until recently, the increased use of the motorized community has pushed the non-motorized use out of historical areas.  Permitted backcountry ski yurts have been moved from Granite Mountain to Fisher Creek, moved around Fisher Creek and to Lick Creek because of the intrusion of motorized recreation. Motorized recreationists need a place to play. Along with the non-motorized uses. Mixing them together does not work. It is like mixing smokers and non-smokers. The smokers usually don’t have a problem with non-smokers in the room, where the opposite is usually not true. Shared use is not shared - the experiences different user groups seek are not the same. Some seek the solitude and peace and quiet that a natural mountain winter setting can provide. Most non-motorized recreationists seek solitude from the noise and congestion of the modern  day.  Some seek the solitude and beauty of a natural landscape, some seek the chance to observe wildlife, while others are looking for untracked snow. These skiers are heading back up the mountain to ski fresh snow in a wilderness setting. This day they managed to beat the motorized recreationists to the area. Notice the old snowmobile tracks in the lower portion of the slope. This skier is 15 miles from the nearest trailhead. 2500 vertical feet above the road. This is the back side of Sargents Peak. Skiers going out of bounds from Brundage and the Brundage cat guides have exclusive use of this area, when they can beat the snowmobilers to it. This area is designated non-motorized year around. This area is spectacular skiing, when you can beat the snowmobilers to it. Skiers in the past have skied this slope for several days at a time and not used up the skiable terrain. Snowmobiles can use up the snow in an afternoon. Motorized user groups prefer the companionship and excitement of their sport Snowmobilers generally are more adrenaline driven in their sport.  With the capacity of about 100 miles per tank of gas they can lay out a lot of track in a short time compared to a skier.  A skier may lay out 2 miles of track on a good day. Snowmobiles tend to make the terrain unsafe for skiers.  These tracks were laid out in about a half hour between 5 snowmobiles.  This terrain is already unsafe for skiers. They come set up for the weekend to play and experience as much country as they can bag. The current commercial uses suffer from competition with other uses of the available terrain. The cat guides can loose 5 full day trips worth of terrain on one Saturday to the snowmobiles.  How can they provide a true quality experience when they are competing with this?  The area set aside for the Brundage Cat Ski program is one of the target areas for the motorized community.  These areas are destinations for the motorized community and are used up first. Cat Guides on a powder day. This is known as “Dead Tree” .  The cat guides are limited to this area and a few more areas West and East of here.  Notice the cat skiers skiing along side of highmarkers.  From a skiers point of view would this be classified as a top quality trip?  Snowmobile tracks are dangerous to ski over. Here is where the multiple use trail has failed.  The loop snowmobile trail to the right  is the track of a highmarker.  That is all the higher they were able to travel up hill in deep snow conditions.  This trail is open to all and so the snowmobiles are traveling up the snowcat road and driving down the hill and using up skiable terrain. Examples of abuses of the non-motorized areas in the backcountry. Historically the statement has been “a few bad apples” but the abuse shows differently.   The sign says “Snowcat Road, No Snowmobiles” - These signs seem to be a magnet for snowmobiles. Another sign says "Ride Smart, this is a tree plantation, riding your snowmobile here could damage the young trees. No Snowmobiles". "Ski Area Boundary" the sign was stood back up after being run over. "No Snowmobiles" This area was being skied by 3 skiers who had made 3 runs on the slope. The snowmobilers came up and rode right up the tracks of the skiers, 3 times. By the time the snowmobiles left there was no skiable terrain. In order for all users to obtain a quality winter experience, motorized and non-motorized must be separated.   All users have the right to seek the experience they wish, and achieve it. From the history of the winter recreation activities in the Payette National Forest, it is obvious that there are people who are willing to ruin the experience for everyone.  The conflicts have increased to the point that on several occasions areas were unsafe for skiers.  The snowmobile community has not been willing to police their own or support the non-motorized recreationists.  There have been conflicts with the multiple use concept and it is obviously not working.  Separate large areas need to be set aside for both the motorized and non-motorized winter recreationists.  These areas need to be large enough to enforce and need to have the ability to provide an experience that individuals are seeking.  Some of these areas need to be accessible to the non-motorized public and have trailheads that access these areas directly.  Two miles is a big day for many people whereas a hundred miles is no problem for a snowmobile.  That way the commercial uses can provide a quality experience. The motorized community can have their high elevation play areas. Skiers, snowshoers, dog sledders and wildlife can find the solitude they seek. Because multiple use does not always fit in a mixed community.